Curse

Lonesamurai · Jun 13, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Source and link please?

Sorry, I don't have a link as I read it here on guru in one of the linked interviews

it was also mentioned breifly by Linsey on one of the b'day interviews, sorry those aren't up yet but I'm hoping soon

war330 · Jun 13, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

dang thats too bad that keg farming is dead... i loved that farm.. i got me 300k in 1 event weekend :P but i guess its time to go learn the raptor farm..ugh

CyberNigma · Jun 13, 2009, 02:03 AM // 02:03

I know what would be funny. By the time ArenaNet releases Guild Wars 2 they make the realization that the ongoing support required to maintain PvP in this game well into the future isn't worth the one-time fee they charge for the game and drop it entirely. I mean it won't happen, just brainstorming that it would be funny.

Far Future -> GW 3 pre-release
Exec: Why are we still billing so much time to GW and GW2?
Dev: Well, their PvP components require constant updating and balancing even past the lifetime of the game so it takes up development and community relations assets.
Exec: For how long?
Dev: Well, as long as the games keep running.
Exec: Is that what the majority of them like about the franchise?
Dev: Well, that's what a minority of them really like and a larger chunk enjoy sometimes.
Exec: Well screw that.. take em down and leave that part out next time.

:-) of course that's not really how many meetings like that go - at least from my experience in enterprise development, but it really does seem to apply to all the complaining and crowd control (CC tm) that community relations have to deal with concerning skill balances.. Does anyone know if Blizzard has to deal with this still from Starcraft players? I'm full aware of how much the WoW community can cry about everything, but Bizzard gets paid every month to deal with that nonsense and so it's very much worth it for them.

angelsarc · Jun 13, 2009, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

You make it sound like Anet doesn't understand their own game.

Also, every post I read from you trashs Guru and it's members. Why do you post here? What exactly is your point? Do you want Anet to just leave us in total darkness, because people have clashing ideas on what is right and wrong? It's obvious what suggestions are decent and which ones are terrible, it's not hard to figure out what needs to be done in this game.

Why not post something constructive, why not give your idea on what should happen instead of just complaining about people complaining.

It's probably because most of the people complaining are way too full of themselves and KNOW that what they want is the only way things can possibly be "fixed." Look at the people getting bent out of shape when it was pointed out that Gurus isn't the end all be all of GW related discussion. Given the amount and length of debate that goes on in suggestion threads, especially balance-related ones, how exactly is A-net supposed to "listen to the players?" Sure, they can glean ideas, but that doesn't mean any particular idea is exactly what they're going to use. So yes, it still takes them time to decide on the final change. I suspect that whatever they don't change, they don't know HOW to fix and just postpone it. I'd like to see in the developer notes some of the things that were also being considered for change, but players would just jump all over this "official announcement of what is coming next month!"

That being said, it shouldn't be that hard to post something saying that there won't be XXX update this Thursday or that rewards would be delayed. Except...they did and people are complaining about it. The fact that there actually was an update, and it was kind of stupid/useless, only made it worse. Slightly off-topic: When was it officially decided that the first Thursday of every month was the skill update and XTH reward day? It's been that way for a while (just not recently), but was it ever officially stated that this would be the case?

It's frankly amazing to me how people can get so angry over something they no longer even pay for. Almost as amazing as still receiving any updates. If I were A-net, I'd want everyone to stop playing so I could save on server fees.

R.Shayne · Jun 13, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

Does anyone know if Blizzard has to deal with this still from Starcraft players?

Patch: Starcraft: Brood War v1.161
Release date: 1/23/2009

Yes they do.

As for the PvP thing, PvP will not be dropped because it is advertisement; if the cost of implementing pvp ever goes above the reward for that advertisement then publishers will drop it, nothing personal - just business. (Don’t you love it when suits get involved?)

HawkofStorms · Jun 13, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Well Gun_Pierson, I run on the MST 3 K Mantra. "It's just a game, I really should relax."

moriz · Jun 13, 2009, 02:33 AM // 02:33

the last Starcraft: Brood War patch that featured a balance update was.... 1.07. some 7(??) years ago. its been new features and bugfixes ever since.

unfortunately, GW does not possess the same self-balancing mechanisms that Starcraft have. builds are absolutely locked in for GW as you enter battle, and there's no way of knowing what your opponents will bring, so there's very little a guild can do if they face the perfect counter. Whereas in Starcraft, you'll always have plenty of leeway to scout and adapt to opponent builds.

as such, a "perfect" balance, given how GW is played, is impossible. the best anet can do is to get as close as possible, and make some changes purely to shake up the meta along the way. GW probably will never reach the point where the meta is free to reinvent itself over time, so the devs will have to do it.

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 13, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

...SNIP...
And history has proven that a simple "we are thinking about it" will be turned into "you promised", and that players then feel "betrayed" when we made changes or came up with something different.

Quote:

So: Are we working on a skill update: yes.
Will it be next week: hopefully - but it depends on a couple of factors.
Are we planning to have a new content update in the 3-4 month timeframe: yes, that is the plan.

And how long will it take for some member of the GWG community to distort these three statments into "promises?" If there's no skill update next week, then I'm guessing it won't take long! And THAT'S a major source of frustration - community members bringing it on themselves by skewing the words of the CR people into what they WANT those words to say, such as the "3 or 4 months" thing meaning "quarterly."

Quote:

We also work on some other things which are not finalised yet, but we will probably be able to talk about it next week.

And again, how long will it take members of the GWG community to start speculationg on what "some other things" are, only to get their own expectations set way too high, dreaming pipe dreams and QQing when the reality of what those things actually are don't meet expectations?

Cale Roughstar · Jun 13, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

I am one of the people who believes that Guild Wars Guru is a representative of the community. There, I said it.

My feathers were ruffled when Martin said otherwise. Sure we may not be the community, but we certainly do represent it. As one of the prime locations for players to discuss the game, it is really quite ignorant and insulting to simply dismiss us just another bunch of randoms. Telling your customers who are yelling at you that they are unimportant is BAD PR!

It is my opinion that at the very least, Guru is a barometer of player opinion. When the pressure builds, this is one of the places that people come to voice their concern. I come to this forum because I care about the game. It is here where I say what I think should be done to fix the game. While I may be just one player, I still have a voice, and with it, I want to inspire change in the game I love. Eventually, when enough people feel that they care about an issue, a really big thread like this one pops up. If you aren't going to take a thread like this as an indication of the community's feelings, then I don't know what more you want.

Yes, I do know that you cannot satisfy everyone, and yes I do know that we are not the whole community, but the fact remains that we are an indication. Yes, there are other forums, and yes there are casual players who don't bother with forums, but short of having a full-scale in game referendum (lol), or a consolidation of the forums, what else is there to indicate player opinions?

What I expect from ANet, and have been disappointed again and again with, is the lack of communication. Granted, I would like to know about everything that ever happens in relation to GW, but I know that is not going to happen. What I really would like, (and I don't think is too far-fetched) is advanced warning, and a sense of responsibility. Every now and then, about once a quarter, a little two line message by Regina will come up in Riverside saying that XYZ thing will be delayed. This is good. I like this. I think we all like this. While it may suck that it is being delayed, at least my hopes weren't up that in a week XYZ would be coming. We found out on Wednesday evening that Thursday's skill balance and Zaishen rewards would be delayed by at least a week. Come on... you honestly expect me to believe that you only figured out that you would need an extra 168 hours with only 20 hours to go? There needs to be some consistency in notifications, and moreover, sometimes there really needs to be an explanation. Why the hell do you need an extra week to give us the rewards? Is this the first time that we have ever gotten RP’s from the Tourney House? Or did something go wrong with the Tourney House? (Which obviously had something go wrong with so many people being locked out and not able to make their predictions…) And if something did go wrong, how about an apology? “Sorry guys, we blew that one” goes a long way to keeping the peace when the natives are restless.

As a customer of ANet’s, it is my right to voice my concerns, and when I am told that I am a minority and therefore my views are largely unimportant, that is when I get angry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

Again: Because you personally do not like it or the way it is done (and yes, by gathering feedback in many places we are aware that there are people out there who do not like it) it is a mistake to assume that you speak for the community.

Okay.

I, Cale Roughstar, your customer and a Guild Wars player, think that you are doing a bad job at community management and public relations.

MagmaRed · Jun 13, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Semantics of 'quarterly' aside, I think what most of us are upset about is not that there wasn't a skill balance done this week, but that we weren't told there wouldn't be one. I know delays happen, and am not bothered much by them. But we have come to expect from past experience to see a update to change the monthy tonics, give XTH rewards, and change skills. As noted already, you knew about the delay on the skill balance update before the update was due. You could have easily made an announcement on your website, wiki, and even here on Guru that it would be delayed. Getting the update and expecting a change to skills (based on past time frames) and not seeing any, most of us were confused, and mad. Could have easily posted a note at the time the update went live to notify us of the delay, but we got nothing.

Communication is lacking.... and I'm not talking about telling us when the next skill balance will be, but a simple 'this one will be delayed' failed to arrive.

angelsarc · Jun 13, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=122

I can't find any confirmation on her wiki page, though.

Once again, I direct you to this link. If this is true, it was known by Tuesday that there would not be a skill update this week.

Giga_Gaia · Jun 13, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Yes, in this day and age, communication is everything in successful business practice. This is the main reason why so many are complaining in this thread. The gap between Anet and its playerbase is growing ever wider, and the strained relationship between the two is very clearly shown here. If you guys think that this won't lead to the game's eventual downfall, then you are sadly mistaken. I've seen a few online gaming communities dissipate into nothing over time, all because the devs wouldn't say anything to its fanbase for months at a time. As a concerned player/fan/customer, please, please, please don't let this happen to Guild Wars.

Zahr Dalsk · Jun 13, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

I think the main group that GWG doesn't represent are the retarded scrubs.

Bear in mind that most scrubs, being mentally challenged, cannot find their way to Guru, or indeed, any internet forum.

So GWG doesn't represent the retarded scrubs very well, although it does represent the spiteful stop-having-fun-and-play-in-my-pug anti-hero people, and those groups overlap a LOT. So I guess it sort of DOES represent scrubs.

Reverend Dr · Jun 13, 2009, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You want to feel like you are listened to? Try posting in a way conducive to a discussion, instead of building every post around an accusation.

While in general, in life, and in every other case I would agree, in this particular case I am going to disagree.

Right now the only people that are getting responded to are the people making rather strong, near inflammatory posts. The people that are making well thought out posts that contribute for discussion are the ones that are getting lost.

For PR to read fan boards is expected. For PR to post on fan boards is okay. It is also okay for them to give general answers to confusion or issues that have been brought up by the community. Directly responding to an individual poster, however, should be avoided, especially in the case where the post to which was responded was rather inflammatory. This sets an atmosphere where it is the loudest and more sensational people are the ones that get heard; though in all fairness this has been the status quo for guild wars for the last four years.

moriz · Jun 13, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I think the main group that GWG doesn't represent are the retarded scrubs.

Bear in mind that most scrubs, being mentally challenged, cannot find their way to Guru, or indeed, any internet forum.

So GWG doesn't represent the retarded scrubs very well, although it does represent the spiteful stop-having-fun-and-play-in-my-pug anti-hero people, and those groups overlap a LOT. So I guess it sort of DOES represent scrubs.

strange, i've always thought forums turn otherwise normal, decent human beings into said retards. each to their own, i guess.

on the topic of guru "is the community" or not....

GWGuru is not the community. however, it is the part of the community that cares the most. what's said on guru should have a much bigger impact than random stuff on GToB all chat.

granted, the last time they had a delay in update, the added content was really good. hopefully they do the same for the balance update also... but given GW1's current staff, i'm probably expecting too much.

Zahr Dalsk · Jun 13, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

strange, i've always thought forums turn otherwise normal, decent human beings into said retards. each to their own, i guess.

Guild Wars already achieves that, you know

Ever been in a PUG? Worst group of children and idiots you'll ever encounter.

And then people wonder why we want a full hero party for our singleplayer game.

Vazze · Jun 13, 2009, 05:10 AM // 05:10

hah, no update, no excuse....I always thought that no regular skill balance means dead GW PvP.

moriz · Jun 13, 2009, 05:21 AM // 05:21

there's a difference between whining and objecting to the fact that there's been a change to a well-established schedule, and not bothering to tell us at least a few hours ahead of time. THEN, having the gall to basically dismiss the part of the community that cares the most about their product.

it's bad PR all around. it's good that Anet reads and responds to the community; but they need to keep in mind, that the only thing worse about no PR, is BAD PR.

Burst Cancel · Jun 13, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

as such, a "perfect" balance, given how GW is played, is impossible. the best anet can do is to get as close as possible, and make some changes purely to shake up the meta along the way. GW probably will never reach the point where the meta is free to reinvent itself over time, so the devs will have to do it.

Actually, the avoidance of "local maximums" in game balance is the job of the playerbase, and occurs in the absence of dev meddling. In situations where players know that there will not be any kind of dev bailout, the players will do what is necessary to try to beat imbalance. The job of the devs is to provide players with enough tools and flexibility to grow and improve, while at the same time providing global fail-safes to prevent the most egregious abuses (example: Guilty Gear). As such, GW balancing has always been somewhat interesting, because in many cases it is difficult to tell whether, given enough time, competitive players would have learned how to overcome imbalance on their own. It is dangerous and counter-productive to create the expectation in your community (particularly your competitive community) that any perceived imbalance will be addressed directly by the developers.

The trick, of course, is how one is able to determine that a local maximum is indeed a local maximum (believed to be overpowered), and not a global one (i.e., actually overpowered). Obviously, that's one of the primary complicating factors in balancing any competitive game.

CyberNigma · Jun 13, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

As for the PvP thing, PvP will not be dropped because it is advertisement;

Of course it wouldn't be dropped.. I hope nobody seriously thinks it would be..

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberNigma

I know what would be funny. ... I mean it won't happen, just brainstorming that it would be funny.

thx for the link btw..

I looked a few posts after mine. I really hope nobody took that seriously. I'm guessing there will be people that just skim posts, leave important pieces out, or just don't realize when someone is musing in an amusing way (heh, play on words) related to the subject at hand..